Hi, I’m a very excited Chicken newbie and need some advice from experienced chicken owners please. I’m planning on having my hens in a large run in my garden next spring. I have seen runs that have metal poles as the supporting structure and also runs that have wooden supports. I plan on having an apex roof which will be covered too. There are so many decisions to make and although I have done loads of reading on here and other sites I’m still quite unsure as to whether to go for wooden supports or metal? Has anyone had experience of both and favours one over the other? I have looked at a couple of websites supplying both kinds and the costs certainly add up in both cases so I really want to get my decision right at the planning stage!! Any advice gratefully received, lovely chicken folk!! Thanks!
Advice for run structure please!
- Thread starter bozza
- Start date
- Messages
- 8,130
- Location
- Hampshire, U.K.
Hi Bozza and welcome to the forum.
One advantage of using a home-made wooden structure is that you can make it to the exact dimensions to fit your maximum space. Also, with wood you can easily attach extras such as clear plastic tarps to keep out the worst of the winter wind and snow, or long high perches under the roof, which the hens will probably choose to roost on, ignoring your coop, especially in hot weather! Furthermore, you can make it truly fox proof and vermin- proof if you line the floor with 1/2" galvanised mesh and join this to the mesh on the sides. Fixing roof panels is also easy on a wooden framework. We used 3"X3" supports for the main uprights, tanalised timber with the ends pre-soaked in preservative before concreting in to holes 15" deep. If you are able to supply the skills and the labour, you'll finish up with a much better run for the price of a pre-made metal one. Ours is still as good as when we made it ten years ago, and if I give up keeping chickens it could be used as a fruit cage, or we could fill in the sides and make a large shed. Of course if the choice is between ready-made wood or metal, then wood will probably be more expensive if of good quality, and might need more work to erect. It really depends on how much you can do for yourself.
Good idea to have a roof, but with an apex design you'll need two gutters, whereas with a simple slope you can get away with one. The gutter is needed to prevent rain blowing in under the edge of the roof in wet windy conditions and making the inside of the run wet and unprotected, so just one gutter, on the most accessible side, is best so you can easily clear out leaves etc.
One advantage of using a home-made wooden structure is that you can make it to the exact dimensions to fit your maximum space. Also, with wood you can easily attach extras such as clear plastic tarps to keep out the worst of the winter wind and snow, or long high perches under the roof, which the hens will probably choose to roost on, ignoring your coop, especially in hot weather! Furthermore, you can make it truly fox proof and vermin- proof if you line the floor with 1/2" galvanised mesh and join this to the mesh on the sides. Fixing roof panels is also easy on a wooden framework. We used 3"X3" supports for the main uprights, tanalised timber with the ends pre-soaked in preservative before concreting in to holes 15" deep. If you are able to supply the skills and the labour, you'll finish up with a much better run for the price of a pre-made metal one. Ours is still as good as when we made it ten years ago, and if I give up keeping chickens it could be used as a fruit cage, or we could fill in the sides and make a large shed. Of course if the choice is between ready-made wood or metal, then wood will probably be more expensive if of good quality, and might need more work to erect. It really depends on how much you can do for yourself.
Good idea to have a roof, but with an apex design you'll need two gutters, whereas with a simple slope you can get away with one. The gutter is needed to prevent rain blowing in under the edge of the roof in wet windy conditions and making the inside of the run wet and unprotected, so just one gutter, on the most accessible side, is best so you can easily clear out leaves etc.
bigyetiman
Well-known member
- Messages
- 2,409
Hi Bozza and welcome.
We inherited a home made wooden structure when we moved here 12 years ago which has stood the test of time. It did need re roofing in places so we replaced that with a sloping roof. We added an extension at one end when we got "morehens disease" and just made a door through which was a simple case of just cutting the mesh. Ideal when we have newbies to gradually introduce to older hens. As marigold says the mesh is ideal fox/rodent proofing and it is easy to attach a wind proof tarpaulin to the wood in the winter.
Do let us know what you decide and let us know about the hens you get.
Not to mention when "morehens disease" strikes it happens to an awful lot of us :lol: :lol: :lol:
We inherited a home made wooden structure when we moved here 12 years ago which has stood the test of time. It did need re roofing in places so we replaced that with a sloping roof. We added an extension at one end when we got "morehens disease" and just made a door through which was a simple case of just cutting the mesh. Ideal when we have newbies to gradually introduce to older hens. As marigold says the mesh is ideal fox/rodent proofing and it is easy to attach a wind proof tarpaulin to the wood in the winter.
Do let us know what you decide and let us know about the hens you get.
Not to mention when "morehens disease" strikes it happens to an awful lot of us :lol: :lol: :lol:
- Messages
- 8,130
- Location
- Hampshire, U.K.
Bozza is wanting to reply but has messaged me to say he's unable to do so because his account has been blocked. I've asked Tim if he can sort it out. Some kind of mistaken failure to recognise his details, I expect the software thinks he's a spammer, which is obviously not the case. Hang on in there, Bozza, we hope you're back online with us soon!
So, this is me trying again in hope that I can reply! Thanks so much to you Marigold for pursuing my issue. I kind of glaze over when things get too technical but I was very frustrated at not being able to respond to your message and advice. Bigyetiman, I have just laughed out loud at your ‘more hens disease’!! I feel it coming on with me and I don’t have any at all yet! I will keep you posted as to my progress as things get moving and assuming this site allows my IP address to keep posting!
- Messages
- 8,130
- Location
- Hampshire, U.K.
Hooray, Bozza, you're back! So sorry the software suspected you of dastardly intentions. I expect all will be well now you've managed to post this. We're looking forward to hearing your plans. Meanwhile, do join us in the dustbath, we're a crazy lot on here and in fact we do occasionally talk about chickens, I promise you!
Yes, I‘m back! It’s my taken me a (very busy!) month to get my act together and finally get sorted! So, in response to your advice, I must confess that neither me or my other half are very keen/savvy when it comes to diy, so for us to build a run from scratch (especially the way I want it) is a definite no-no!! We don’t know one end of a saw from the other and it would probably result in divorce to be honest!! I have been looking at the runs you can buy from Jim Vyse. These come flat packed with everything I had in mind for my run (A-frame, tantalised timber, onduline type roof and guttering). They are costly and I am prepared for that but I would rather buy something decent and do everything as well as I can at the outset to avoid having to remedy issues like rats, mud bogs etc once the hens are in situ. I am planning to dig down and lay permeable membrane/welded mesh and have got someone coming to grind down some old tree stumps so I can get this started. I will start to take some pictures to chart my progress (and hard work!!) so I will keep you posted as to how I get on. I will undoubtedly be needing loads of advice along the way so apologies in advance!!!
Margaid
Well-known member
- Messages
- 2,110
- Location
- Shropshire
They look good on the website and if you don't have the skills then you don't have them. Neither do I and I expect you're very good at something else!
- Messages
- 8,130
- Location
- Hampshire, U.K.
jim Vise is an excellent small company, located about 2 miles from where i live, so i know he's genuine and will do a good job, using proper wood, not like some of the cheapo Chinese imports on sale on the internet. Where do you live? If visiting anywhere near Whitchurch Hants, do call in for a coffee and meet my girls (Of course this invitation goes for anyone else coming this way!)
Now, how big a space do you have, relative to how many chickens you hope to keep (allowing for Morehens Disease, of course.) We recommend allowing a minimum of 2 sq. metres of run floor space per bird. This is more important in small runs, less than 6 sq.metres, because quite a lot of space is taken up by the coop itself, the feeder and drinker and dustbath, and in a run which is too small there's nowhere for a hen to hide and bullying and boredom is more common. The tiny runs commonly sold with attached coops are totally useless because you can't keep the number of birds that the coop allows, in the run size provided, without severe overcrowding. A separate free standing coop is much better if possible, and then you have the choice of a wooden coop or a plastic one. Also, you'll need enough floor space to be able to screen off part of the run when introducing new birds, or when separating a sick or injured bird, or when helping a hen to get over being broody and spending all day in the nestbox.
It's also a good idea to start small, ie with maybe 3-4 hens in a 10-12 sq. metre run, rather than filling it to capacity. This gives you the chance to get some new ones maybe after about two years, or after one or two have died, when the first lot will still be laying but less often, and you'll be fond of them and probably won't want to clear out the lot and totally replace them. Don't get less than three, because when the first one dies you'll then be left with two, rather than with just one lonely hen, and can then get another two rather than just one, as it's difficult to integrate a single bird, and also difficult to add a new pair to an existing older singleton who thinks she owns the territory.
Now, how big a space do you have, relative to how many chickens you hope to keep (allowing for Morehens Disease, of course.) We recommend allowing a minimum of 2 sq. metres of run floor space per bird. This is more important in small runs, less than 6 sq.metres, because quite a lot of space is taken up by the coop itself, the feeder and drinker and dustbath, and in a run which is too small there's nowhere for a hen to hide and bullying and boredom is more common. The tiny runs commonly sold with attached coops are totally useless because you can't keep the number of birds that the coop allows, in the run size provided, without severe overcrowding. A separate free standing coop is much better if possible, and then you have the choice of a wooden coop or a plastic one. Also, you'll need enough floor space to be able to screen off part of the run when introducing new birds, or when separating a sick or injured bird, or when helping a hen to get over being broody and spending all day in the nestbox.
It's also a good idea to start small, ie with maybe 3-4 hens in a 10-12 sq. metre run, rather than filling it to capacity. This gives you the chance to get some new ones maybe after about two years, or after one or two have died, when the first lot will still be laying but less often, and you'll be fond of them and probably won't want to clear out the lot and totally replace them. Don't get less than three, because when the first one dies you'll then be left with two, rather than with just one lonely hen, and can then get another two rather than just one, as it's difficult to integrate a single bird, and also difficult to add a new pair to an existing older singleton who thinks she owns the territory.
- Messages
- 8,130
- Location
- Hampshire, U.K.
P.S. Is this the link? which one are you looking at? they look good.
https://www.jimvysearks.co.uk/product-category/runs-enclosures/
https://www.jimvysearks.co.uk/product-category/runs-enclosures/
bigyetiman
Well-known member
- Messages
- 2,409
Glad you are back with us and ready to start building or buying.
We started with the one run and coop, then had the room to add another run at the end with a coop, and just made a door through, handy when you want to introduce new girls slowly.
There is no escape or cure for morehens disease, but on the bright side it's not fatal and only catching off another hen keeper
We started with the one run and coop, then had the room to add another run at the end with a coop, and just made a door through, handy when you want to introduce new girls slowly.
There is no escape or cure for morehens disease, but on the bright side it's not fatal and only catching off another hen keeper
Hi Marigold, Margaid and Bigyetiman! Thank you for your advice and encouragement! The space I have for my run is 21 x 15ft. The 21 ft is the width of the bottom end of my garden I will plan the run to allow for enough space all the way around to enable ‘maintenance’ etc to be done. I plan to get 4 hens I think (until the morehens syndrome sets in!!). Marigold, thank you for your reassurance regarding the Jim Vyse runs. The link you referred to is the right one and if you scroll to the bottom of that page the large enclosed runs with roof on the right are the ones I’ve been looking at. He does bespoke versions as required so in the New year I will measure up more accurately and have a good think about the largest size I can get. I work 30 hrs a week on weekdays so I need my girls to have enough room and things to do to occupy them and allow them their own space whilst I am at work. I plan on spending lots of time in the garden with the girls when I’m not at work allowing them to do their thing as they please while I’m pottering around! I plan on getting a non wooden coop, although I’m as yet undecided on which one yet. I’ve changed my mind several times on this one, so watch this space!
Marigold, I live in Lincolnshire so quite a way away from you but if I decide to have a trip down to Jim Vyse I would love to pop in for coffee!! I think you’d soon be sick of my endless chicken questions though!
Margaid, I’m a chemotherapy nurse so most of my vaguely useful skills involve needles sadly, rather than a drill or a hammer!!
A question for you all...I’ve planned on getting some hybrid POL hens from a lovely place local to me. I’ve been to visit them and picked their brains, and had a good chat. However, I see a lot on social media about rehoming of ex battery hens...is this something you’d recommend to a first timer, or is it better to get an understanding of ’healthy‘, ‘normal’ hens before adopting some of those poor girls? Have any of you rehomed ex batts and what are your experiences if so? Thank you all again. I love this forum!!
Marigold, I live in Lincolnshire so quite a way away from you but if I decide to have a trip down to Jim Vyse I would love to pop in for coffee!! I think you’d soon be sick of my endless chicken questions though!
Margaid, I’m a chemotherapy nurse so most of my vaguely useful skills involve needles sadly, rather than a drill or a hammer!!
A question for you all...I’ve planned on getting some hybrid POL hens from a lovely place local to me. I’ve been to visit them and picked their brains, and had a good chat. However, I see a lot on social media about rehoming of ex battery hens...is this something you’d recommend to a first timer, or is it better to get an understanding of ’healthy‘, ‘normal’ hens before adopting some of those poor girls? Have any of you rehomed ex batts and what are your experiences if so? Thank you all again. I love this forum!!
bigyetiman
Well-known member
- Messages
- 2,409
Glad you are finding us all helpful.
Personally I would go for some "normal" hens first. With ex batts you may have to spend a lot of time getting them used to your type of feeders/feed, going to bed in a coop as they will have been packed in barns, or cages. Perching will be new to them as well. The great outdoors and even sunlight will be scary for them.
You are obviously a hardworking person being a chemo nurse, so the hens from a supplier may be a less taxing option to start. We have not had ex batts, but have taken in rescue chickens from people who hadn't a clue or shouldn't have got them in the first place, and it can be tricky getting them used to your set up.
If you want eggs, the ex batts will be coming to the end of their laying days.
This is just my view someone on here who has had ex batts will give you much better advice on them
Personally I would go for some "normal" hens first. With ex batts you may have to spend a lot of time getting them used to your type of feeders/feed, going to bed in a coop as they will have been packed in barns, or cages. Perching will be new to them as well. The great outdoors and even sunlight will be scary for them.
You are obviously a hardworking person being a chemo nurse, so the hens from a supplier may be a less taxing option to start. We have not had ex batts, but have taken in rescue chickens from people who hadn't a clue or shouldn't have got them in the first place, and it can be tricky getting them used to your set up.
If you want eggs, the ex batts will be coming to the end of their laying days.
This is just my view someone on here who has had ex batts will give you much better advice on them
- Messages
- 8,130
- Location
- Hampshire, U.K.
I can see that a lot of people really enjoy giving a home to exbatts, and there's certainly a feel-good factor about improving their lifestyle and watching them develop. They will be a very placid breed, bred to endure overcrowding without fighting, and have lovely personalities. As BYM says, their best egg laying days will be past, that is why they are being sent for slaughter if not rescued, and they will be more inclined to get painful and fatal illnesses such as prolapse and peritonitis because they have been expected to lay so heavily. Also, they will become inclined to laying eggs with very poor shell quality, or no shell at all. However, those that survive the transfer to a normal life can go on laying for quite a while, and make lovely pets, being very trusting and intelligent. Of course a lot depends on where they've been living and what state they're in when they arrive. Some look almost normal and others will be nearly bald - not so good if being rehomed outdoors in winter conditions.
Unless the rehoming idea really appeals, I would myself agree with BYM about getting 'normal' point of lay hybrids for your first birds, for several reasons. Firstly, you can choose a variety of breeds, with different plumage so you can tell them apart, they look an attractive mixture in the garden, and each will lay a different colour egg, (if you ask the supplier about this when choosing,) varying from fawny-beige, through white, greeny blue, and shades of dark brown. The size and shape of the egg will vary between breeds as well. That means you are able to tell who has laid that day, and diagnose any problems with egg laying in relation to the bird concerned. Exbatts will all lay uniform brown eggs. Also, you will begin to get an idea about what type of hen you like, for when Morehens disease strikes, as it will.
Secondly, you will have both the thrill of 'first eggs' from your teenage, 16-18 week-old pullets, and if you get them a few weeks before they come into lay they will have a chance to settle down, finish growing, and get ready for a good laying season in the Spring, where you will have the advantage of all their best eggs in the first two years. You'll also have a chance to examine the birds before buying, and even more important, to check out conditions at the suppliers where they're kept. If conditions are dirty and crowded and the drinking water is filthy, walk away, get them from somewhere where you won't be importing diseases that may dog your flock for years. It's most probable that hybrids will have been hatched and raised up to about 16 weeks in large-scale commercial units, where they will have been mass vaccinated against chicken diseases, and this has to happen at various intervals every few weeks, like with kids. Home-bred hens from small backyard breeders most probably won't have had this immunisation programme, not that that's necessarily a problem, but as mycoplasma is so prevalent in small domestic flocks, it's best to avoid the chance of it if possible. It's possible that hybrids won't necessarily all turn out to be healthy and long lived - I had one young pullet die overnight in the coop for no known reason in my last batch - although pretty tough, they're not immortal - but at least they're not very expensive, it's not like buying a purebred show quality hen for twice the price or more!
Unless the rehoming idea really appeals, I would myself agree with BYM about getting 'normal' point of lay hybrids for your first birds, for several reasons. Firstly, you can choose a variety of breeds, with different plumage so you can tell them apart, they look an attractive mixture in the garden, and each will lay a different colour egg, (if you ask the supplier about this when choosing,) varying from fawny-beige, through white, greeny blue, and shades of dark brown. The size and shape of the egg will vary between breeds as well. That means you are able to tell who has laid that day, and diagnose any problems with egg laying in relation to the bird concerned. Exbatts will all lay uniform brown eggs. Also, you will begin to get an idea about what type of hen you like, for when Morehens disease strikes, as it will.
Secondly, you will have both the thrill of 'first eggs' from your teenage, 16-18 week-old pullets, and if you get them a few weeks before they come into lay they will have a chance to settle down, finish growing, and get ready for a good laying season in the Spring, where you will have the advantage of all their best eggs in the first two years. You'll also have a chance to examine the birds before buying, and even more important, to check out conditions at the suppliers where they're kept. If conditions are dirty and crowded and the drinking water is filthy, walk away, get them from somewhere where you won't be importing diseases that may dog your flock for years. It's most probable that hybrids will have been hatched and raised up to about 16 weeks in large-scale commercial units, where they will have been mass vaccinated against chicken diseases, and this has to happen at various intervals every few weeks, like with kids. Home-bred hens from small backyard breeders most probably won't have had this immunisation programme, not that that's necessarily a problem, but as mycoplasma is so prevalent in small domestic flocks, it's best to avoid the chance of it if possible. It's possible that hybrids won't necessarily all turn out to be healthy and long lived - I had one young pullet die overnight in the coop for no known reason in my last batch - although pretty tough, they're not immortal - but at least they're not very expensive, it's not like buying a purebred show quality hen for twice the price or more!
Hi Bozza.
I started out with ex-batts, rehomed via the British Hen Welfare Trust, www.bhwt.org.uk . I've never regretted my decision. Ex-batts are friendly, placid, low maintenance and bred to be healthy, not prone to the diseases that can afflict "posh birds".
These days I alternate between getting ex-batts & getting young point-of-lay pure breeds &/or hybrids, so I've experienced all three. With any hybrid you'll get thin shells as they get older. Buying a coop with roll away nest boxes is a great way of future-proofing against hens eating their (& each other's) eggs as the shells get thinner with age. Adding a mineral booster powder to the layers ' pellets will also help both with ex-batts and with older hens.
I've found that ex-batts settle in to their new home faster than young pullets. They've been putting themselves to bed & perching within a few days and of course laying pretty much straight away; it's not unusual to find an egg in the carrying box by the time I've brought them home!
They're also really happy & seem really grateful. To watch them learn to scratch around & to dustbathe is just lovely and their feathers soon grow back to their full glory.
Whatever you decide on, so long as your coop is in a big, fox-resistant run, you won't regret it!! Enjoy!!!
I started out with ex-batts, rehomed via the British Hen Welfare Trust, www.bhwt.org.uk . I've never regretted my decision. Ex-batts are friendly, placid, low maintenance and bred to be healthy, not prone to the diseases that can afflict "posh birds".
These days I alternate between getting ex-batts & getting young point-of-lay pure breeds &/or hybrids, so I've experienced all three. With any hybrid you'll get thin shells as they get older. Buying a coop with roll away nest boxes is a great way of future-proofing against hens eating their (& each other's) eggs as the shells get thinner with age. Adding a mineral booster powder to the layers ' pellets will also help both with ex-batts and with older hens.
I've found that ex-batts settle in to their new home faster than young pullets. They've been putting themselves to bed & perching within a few days and of course laying pretty much straight away; it's not unusual to find an egg in the carrying box by the time I've brought them home!
They're also really happy & seem really grateful. To watch them learn to scratch around & to dustbathe is just lovely and their feathers soon grow back to their full glory.
Whatever you decide on, so long as your coop is in a big, fox-resistant run, you won't regret it!! Enjoy!!!
Ahh, thank you Ice Maiden, BYM and Marigold for your advice and thoughts on the sort of hens to go for as a first timer. My instincts are telling me to go for POL hybrids to start with and I think, as time goes on, and I become more experienced I will give a home to a few ex-batts and keep mixing it up as I go along. I’ve been a bit put off at this early stage by pure breeds. As attracted to them as I am I keep reading that they’re more inclined to become broody and tend to be more highly strung. You may be able to put me right on this with all of your experience? I know that they are nowhere near as productive egg laying wise, which doesn’t bother me that much, but everything I read points first time chicken keepers to hybrids for their first ‘go’. I’d be interested on your thoughts ladies and gents!! I’ve (hopefully) attached a photo of the patch of garden I’ve got planned for my chickens. I’m in the process of finding quotes for someone to supply (and possibly) build my run. Tree stump grinding man is coming this week so that’s one job off the very long list!! Thanks again for all of your advice and interest. Happy New Year to you all. 2020 will definitely be the year of the chicken for me! 
bigyetiman
Well-known member
- Messages
- 2,409
That looks a decent space, just waiting for a run and coop.
Start simple and once morehens disease strikes you can go onto more fancy breeds if you wish. Some are more broody then others. Bit like people all different in their own ways and attitudes
Lots of different people on this forum with experience of different breeds to advise you.
Start simple and once morehens disease strikes you can go onto more fancy breeds if you wish. Some are more broody then others. Bit like people all different in their own ways and attitudes
Lots of different people on this forum with experience of different breeds to advise you.
- Messages
- 8,130
- Location
- Hampshire, U.K.
That’s a fantastic area for a good-sized run and coop, lucky girls. Just remember, nobody ever wished they had made a smaller run, however many birds they end up with.
Hi everyone, another question for you lovely experienced lot...I’m getting quotes for my run from a few companies and am just wondering what size weld mesh you would recommend. I asked one chap for a quote with 1/4 x 1/4 weldmesh and he queried it as he said with that small an aperture, the weldmesh is only 19g and is actually quite weak. Will 1/2 x 1/2 be adequate? And do I need a different gauge for the walls and to line the base? I’m really not wanting to set up a run that will be crawling with rodents but I also want something strong. I’ve found that some weldmesh is galvanised, some is stainless steel. I’m a bit stumped and I would like to be able to confidently ask for quotes with a bit of knowledge. Can anyone help me please?? Thank you so much xx ?
- Messages
- 8,130
- Location
- Hampshire, U.K.
Hi Bozza. We used 1/2" galvanised mesh in our run, and you can see what it looks like in the pic I posted a day or so ago, see http://poultrykeeperforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=70280#p70280. We used the green plastic-coated mesh, because it camouflages better in a garden, and 10 years later the coating is still intact and shows no signs of rust. I mainly chose it because, although the wire it's made of may be thinner than on mesh with wider holes, it's actually extremely effective at excluding rodents, right down to small mice, and also wild birds. This is very important as if any of these pests get in, not only do they eat the food but they can contaminate food and water and spread diseases and infestations. We lined the run floor with mesh as well and fastened it to the sides to make a rodent-proof box, and so far, none have got in and my birds have remained free of infections and parasites.
It's actually pretty strong stuff -it doesn't seem weak at all to me, certainly not compared to chicken wire, which is totally useless for keeping any sort of predators out. If you think about it, the wire may be a bit thinner, but there's more of it in any given area because it goes round a greater number of holes. Also, if you live in an area where there are foxes, it isn't possible for them to chew their way in because they can't get their teeth into the small holes.
Of course what you choose is up to you and you must take professional advice, I'm not trying to persuade you - I can only say I would choose the same stuff again in my situation as it's as good as new after 10 years.
It's actually pretty strong stuff -it doesn't seem weak at all to me, certainly not compared to chicken wire, which is totally useless for keeping any sort of predators out. If you think about it, the wire may be a bit thinner, but there's more of it in any given area because it goes round a greater number of holes. Also, if you live in an area where there are foxes, it isn't possible for them to chew their way in because they can't get their teeth into the small holes.
Of course what you choose is up to you and you must take professional advice, I'm not trying to persuade you - I can only say I would choose the same stuff again in my situation as it's as good as new after 10 years.